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Discussion about multiple myeloma treatments, stem cell transplants, clinical trials, alternative medicines, supplements, and their benefits and side effects.

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by hsymonds on Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:34 pm

Hi Cathy,

Thanks so much for your referral on the TED talk about how Revlimid works and how the anti-angiogenesis diet is so beneficial for cancer patients. I just started the first cycle of Revlimid and started getting very worried today, with various symptoms like cramping and hand shaking. What a blessing I found your post and the video.

Thank you ! !

Antelope1225 wrote:

I know everyone wishes they didn't need to take Revlimid, but I thought I would attach a video of a TED talk that basically describes HOW Revlimid works. It works by anti angiogenesis. That means that Revlimid inhibits the blood vessel proliferation in our bone marrow. http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li

hsymonds

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by antelope1225 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:37 pm

Thanks for letting me know it was helpful, hsymonds. I don't know if you have already had a SCT and are starting maintenance or if you just got diagnosed, but I wish you well.

Cathy

antelope1225
Name: Cathy1225
Who do you know with myeloma?: Myself
When were you/they diagnosed?: May 25 2012
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by mikeb on Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Hi Cathy and hsymonds,

I'm confused.

I just watched the TED talk video that Cathy recommended. At around 14:15 into the talk, William Li shows a slide that ranks angiogenesis on the X axis, with less angiogenesis on the left and more on the right. If I understand things correctly, anti-angiogenesis leads to (or is the same as) less angiogenesis. So those substances that are high in anti-angiogenesis would have short lines along the X-axis and those that are low would have long lines along the X-axis. Right?

In fact, William Li says something like "Short line is good," since his thesis is that anti-angio­genesis is good. But lenalidomide (Revlimid) has one of the longest lines in the graph. So, if I am understanding things correctly, lenalidomide would be high on angiogenesis and low on anti-angiogenesis - the opposite of what Cathy claimed in the posting that hsymonds quoted.

Lenalidomide is an immunomodulatory agent, somehow harnessing the immune system to fight myeloma cells. I don't understand the details of exactly how it works, but I don't think it involves inhibiting blood vessel proliferation. Li's graph, if I understand it correctly, shows that lenalidomide increases (not decreases) blood vessels.

So ... am I misunderstanding something about the TED talk? Am I misunderstanding the relationship between immunomodulatory agents like lenalidomide and (anti-)angiogenesis?

(I am attaching a screen grab of the graph we're referencing here.)

Mike

WilliamLi_2010-320k.jpg
WilliamLi_2010-320k.jpg (38.43 KiB) Viewed 936 times

mikeb
Name: mikeb
Who do you know with myeloma?: self
When were you/they diagnosed?: 2009 (MGUS at that time)
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by Rneb on Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:39 pm

I think his reference ( Wm Li's ) may be...

1) IM Meds interfere with the "signal" of "needing add'l blood supply" that cancer cells invariably issue--and hence why they (tumors) tend to grow exponentially / split.

2) Angio Meds reduce capillary and other growth capacities ( ie. into larger vessels)--so they do tend to cut the nutrient supplies to tumors. ( low Platelets while on Revlimid anyone ?)

A micro-environment issue is also posed: Adipose tissues / Muscle-- location vs Growth in the medullary spaces / Marrow locations. Method of action is differentiated here.

I wish he would have discussed the Zometa and Aredia family of drugs--and their effect (if any).

Direct & indirect causes are certainly difficult to tease out, given our varied anatomical locations / functions..
I certainly give Wm Li a "Kudo" for looking for dietary , etc "associations" that can be Cancer patient introduced / controlled / modified.

Meanwhile--You may resume arguing Graphs .....and what they purport to represent or not represent. ( Defense Secy Robert McNamara unsuccessfully tried to explain the Vietnam war in this manner...)

Regardless-May your tumors be "tricked in to a sated state" and on a strict "low blood/ nutrient diet".... nice and anemic like, and very slow growing !

Rneb

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by antelope1225 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:36 am

Hey Mike,

Sorry I am so slow responding - I didn't notice you had written to me.

That graph does not show what I understood he was saying! I will watch it again because maybe he made a mistake on the title of the graph or maybe I didn't pay close enough attention. I had seen that Revlimid (lenalidomide) works by it's antiangiogenic properties, but his graft shows that it is the 3rd least effective as far as anti-angiogenesis!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19674465
Lenalidomide has been shown to have anti-angiogenic properties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenalidomide
lenalidomide has three main activities: direct anti-tumor effect, inhibition of angiogenesis, and immunomodulatory role.

In vivo, lenalidomide induces tumor cell apoptosis directly and indirectly by inhibition of bone marrow stromal cell support, by anti-angiogenic and anti-osteoclastogenic effects, and by immunomodulatory activity

I will watch the TED talk again- more carefully

antelope1225
Name: Cathy1225
Who do you know with myeloma?: Myself
When were you/they diagnosed?: May 25 2012
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by antelope1225 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:52 am

Hi Mike.

I just watched the TED talk and you are right! It looks to me like artichokes, parsley, berries and garlic (and others) are more anti-angiogenesis than Revlimid.

Why does Revlimid emphasize that it is anti-angiogenic if it is so weak at that?

He said that angiogenesis is a tipping point where a cancer becomes metastatic - and Revlimid causes angiogenesis?!

That is actually very troubling.

Thanks for pointing it out, Mike. Cathy

antelope1225
Name: Cathy1225
Who do you know with myeloma?: Myself
When were you/they diagnosed?: May 25 2012
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by mikeb on Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:49 pm

Hi Cathy,

I love the open exchange of information that we have on the Beacon forum. I learn something new here almost every day.

Case in point - your references to the anti-angiogenesis properties of Revlimid. Thanks for pointing those out to me! I had thought of it as only an immunomodulatory agent.

And, in an interesting coincidence, the speaker at Saturday's Philadelphia Multiple Myeloma Networking Group meeting, Dr. Vogl from Penn, mentioned the anti-angiogenesis property of Revlimid also.

So now, like you, I'm wondering more about that graph from the TED talk - where did William Li got his Revlimid data from?

Mike

mikeb
Name: mikeb
Who do you know with myeloma?: self
When were you/they diagnosed?: 2009 (MGUS at that time)
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by TerryH on Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:40 pm

For what it's worth, the prescribing information for Revlimid says the following about how it works (it's "mechanism of action"):

Lena​lidomide is an analogue of thalidomide with immunomodu­latory, anti­angiogenic, and antineoplastic properties. Lena​lidomide inhibits proliferation and induces apoptosis of certain hemato­poietic tumor cells including multiple myeloma, mantle cell lymphoma, and del (5q) myelo­dys­plastic syndromes in vitro. Lena​­lidomide causes a delay in tumor growth in some in vivo nonclinical hemato­poietic tumor models including multiple myeloma. Immuno­modulatory properties of lenalidomide include activation of T cells and natural killer (NK) cells, increased numbers of NKT cells, and inhibition of pro-inflammatory cytokines (e.g., TNF-α and IL-6) by monocytes. In multiple myeloma cells, the combination of lenalidomide and dexamethasone synergizes the inhibition of cell proliferation and the induction of apoptosis."

(This language is similar to what Cathy quoted from Wikipedia.)

The FDA requires good evidence for what it allows companies to claim about their drugs in their prescribing information, so I would suspect there is decent evidence for what is said in the above statement.

I'll also add – again, for what it's worth – that I've heard doctors describe diagrams describing a drug's mechanism of action as "cartoons", because they are often based on a lot of sketchy evidence. In many cases, the truth is that we don't really know very well exactly how drugs do what they do.

I think researchers understand how proteasome inhibitors work against myeloma and how CD38 monoclonal antibodies work against myeloma, but I'm not sure they really understand how Revlimid "does its thing."

TerryH

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by antelope1225 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:42 pm

I agree, Mike. It is so nice to be able to share information - and especially good to get feedback and correction.

That graph from the TED talk doesn't sound accurate.

I appreciate Terry sending the prescribing information for Revlimid.

  1. It inhibits proliferation and induces apoptosis in multiple myeloma cells (I think of the word "pop" in here - apoptosis is when a cell pops or dies)
  2. It causes a delay in tumor growth
  3. It activates T cells and natural killer cells and inhibits pro-inflammatory cytokines.
One of the most helpful things for me is when Terry said:

I think researchers understand how proteasome inhibitors work against myeloma and how CD38 monoclonal antibodies work against myeloma, but I'm not sure they really understand how Revlimid "does its thing."

antelope1225
Name: Cathy1225
Who do you know with myeloma?: Myself
When were you/they diagnosed?: May 25 2012
Age at diagnosis: 55

Re: Side effects of Revlimid as maintenance drug

by Multibilly on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:10 pm

BTW, in reading up on a history of multiple myeloma by Dr. Kyle and Dr. Rajkumar http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265446/, I came across the history of thalidomide (the precursor to Revlimid) usage in multiple myeloma. It's anti-angiogenesis properties were in fact what apparently first led to its use in multiple myeloma treatment.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

"In 1994 Harvard Professor Robert D'Amato at Boston Children's Hospital discovered that thalidomide was a potent inhibitor of new blood vessel growth (angiogenesis), which is required for tumor growth. He then showed in a rabbit cancer model that thalidomide suppressed tumor growth in animals. He also found that a subset of anti-inflammatory drugs, such as sulindac and dexamethasone, had moderate anti-angiogenic activity. When these anti-inflammatory anti-angiogenic drugs were combined with thalidomide, they increased both thalidomide's anti-angiogenic and anti-tumor activity. Based on these discoveries, numerous cancer clinical trials for thalidomide were initiated with and without dexamethasone.

Thalidomide was initially tested in humans as a single agent for the treatment of multiple myeloma due to its anti-angiogenic activity. The early foundation for this work was laid out in a 1993 keynote lecture at the American Society of Hematology by Dr. Folkman when he hypothesized that all blood borne malignancies are angiogenesis-dependent, based upon his discovery that the levels of the angiogenic growth factor FGF were elevated in the urine of patients with leukaemia. Further studies in his lab showed efficacy with the angiogenesis inhibitor TNP-470 in mouse models of leukaemia. Additionally, in 1994 Vacca had shown a fivefold increase in angiogenesis in the bone marrow of multiple myeloma patients. When the family of a patient with late stage multiple myeloma requested any possible help from Dr. Folkman in 1997, he attempted to obtain TNP-470 as a therapy. However TNP-470 could not be obtained outside of the ongoing clinical trial and thus Dr. D'Amato suggested that thalidomide be used instead for this patient. A small study was then initiated with thalidomide for this patient and several others by Dr. Bart Barlogie with dramatic effects. Since then, many studies have shown that thalidomide, in combination with dexamethasone, has increased the survival of multiple myeloma patients.

In the 2000s, the combination of thalidomide and dexamethasone, often in combination with melphalan, became one of the most common regimens for patients with newly diagnosed multiple myeloma. Thalidomide may also cause side effects, such as polyneuropathy, fatigue, skin rash, and venous thromboembolism (VTE), or blood clots, which could lead to stroke or myocardial infarction.

In 2006 the U.S. Food and Drug Administration granted accelerated approval for thalidomide in combination with dexamethasone for the treatment of newly diagnosed multiple myeloma patients. The FDA approval came seven years after the first reports of efficacy in the medical literature."

Multibilly
Name: Multibilly
Who do you know with myeloma?: Me
When were you/they diagnosed?: Smoldering, Nov, 2012

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