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Discussion about multiple myeloma treatments, stem cell transplants, clinical trials, alternative medicines, supplements, and their benefits and side effects.

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by Jonah on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:56 pm

Hi Coach,

I don't have a definite yes or no answer to your question. I just wouldn't go into the discussion with my specialist assuming that, because there is something on the PET/CT, it automatically means treatment should start again.

Some questions I would ask my specialist include:

  1. Do the PET/CT results indicate the myeloma is more widespread / advanced than suggested by my M-spike or light chain results?
  2. Do the PET/CT results call for treatment of some sort for reasons than what they reflect about how widespread the disease is? For example, could a lesion on PET/CT be in a spot where, if untreated, fractures could easily result, or other damage.
That having been said, if the PET/CT reveals a new lesion, that alone would be sufficient, I believe, for relapse to have occurred according to IMWG criteria. See, for example, Dr. Libby's explanation of those criteria here in the forum.

Now, it's not clear to me that a new lesion that is very, very small would cause most myeloma specialists to re-start treatment. Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, note that if the PET/CT shows that an existing lesion has grown, then the growth would have to be more than 1 cm to be considered a sign of clinical relapse, according to the criteria described by Dr. Libby.

Jonah

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by coachhoke on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:25 pm

Hi Jonah,

Thanks for answering my question.

Dr. Libby is using the 2011 IMWG definition of clinical relapse.

I think that the appearance of a new lesion, more widespread activity, or a lesion that would lead to a possible fracture would be an easy "yes" to starting treatment I don't know what else would light up on a PET/CT scan.

Thanks again,
Coach Hoke

coachhoke
Name: coachhoke
When were you/they diagnosed?: Apri 2012
Age at diagnosis: 71

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by MMFeb16,15 on Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:39 am

Dear Jonah and Coach:

I am learning from your discussion on this subject.

For lytic lesions, I understand, I am taking Zometa. Am I correct? I will prefer to avoid any chemo, including going back to Revlimid plus dexamethasone.

Thank you.

MMFeb16,15
Who do you know with myeloma?: Self
When were you/they diagnosed?: February 16, 2015
Age at diagnosis: 66

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by coachhoke on Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:47 pm

Dear MMFeb16,15:

Jonah, you, and I agree on many issues: mainly not taking more medication than is absolutely necessary.

Your lytic lesions will never heal (fill in with new bone). Zometa (and Aredia) are bisphosphonates that supposedly make the bone around the lesion stronger. There is no test (including bone density) to measure this. There are some studies that indicate those taking bisphosphonates have less SREs (skeletal related events) and longer overall survival.

I'm not convinced that the evidence outweighs the potential side effects, mainly osteonecrosis of the jaw (ONJ). I witnessed this on more than one occasion – I'm a retired dentist – and it can be devastating.

Ask why you are taking Zometa.

Good luck,
Coach Hoke

coachhoke
Name: coachhoke
When were you/they diagnosed?: Apri 2012
Age at diagnosis: 71

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by Jonah on Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:28 pm

Coach - I checked the 2016 response and relapse criteria before posting the link to Dr. Libby's summary of the 2011 criteria. I did not see any difference in the lesion-related relapse criteria. Did I miss something?

It's probably true that a new lesion on a PET/CT scan would lead most myeloma specialists to re-start treatment. Even in that situation, I still think it would be worth discussing the issues I mentioned in my earlier post.

As far as I know, the evidence is solid when it comes to bisphosphonates reducing fractures and other skeletal-related events. I personally think the evidence is more sketchy when it comes to whether or not Zometa improves overall survival. But there is evidence of that sort out there, and some (many?) myeloma specialists are convinced by it.

The risk of ONJ from bisphosphonates is real, particularly with Zometa. Most myeloma specialists will tell you the risk is small – a percent or two – if a patient adheres to certain basic precautions, such as no major dental work while on Zometa or for a while after the last Zometa infusion.

There is some debate about how much bone healing Aredia and Zometa can promote. That said, there was a posting here in the forum with evidence that the healing can be significant.

Hope this helps a bit.

Jonah

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by Christa's Mom on Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:58 pm

I can only share from EJ's recent experience. The doc was following increased activity in some of EJ's existing lesions for a while before she restarted treatment. It was only when the activity reached a certain point, and his M-spike had risen to a certain point, and there was a faint shadow of what possibly could be a new lesion, that the doctors wanted to restart treatment. It seemed to me that it was a bit of a balancing game to find that optimal point where the risks of the new treatment outweighed the risks of not starting treatment. (Did I say that right?)

Lyn

Christa's Mom
Name: Christa's Mom
Who do you know with myeloma?: Husband
When were you/they diagnosed?: September, 2010
Age at diagnosis: 53

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by MMFeb16,15 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:29 am

Thanks again to everyone.

I had a very meaningful visit with my hematologist on August 31st. He is not worried about the M-spike creeping up, but he wonders why it is doing that. He noted that the serum free light chain (sFLC) reading is declining. (Recall that I am IgG kappa multiple myeloma.)

He suggested another blood test end of September and a PT/CT scan. He also may do a bone marrow biopsy (BMB) after seeing my blood test report. Last time I a bone marrow biopsy and PET/CT scan was last September before my stem cell collection.

No maintenance dose yet. Let us see how I do in my blood test and PET/CT scan end of this month. I am feeling fine except fear of unknown ... or should I say known – multiple myeloma!

Thank you.

MMFeb16,15
Who do you know with myeloma?: Self
When were you/they diagnosed?: February 16, 2015
Age at diagnosis: 66

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by JPC on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:47 am

Hello MMFeb15, 16:

I noticed that your original question was on maintenance, however, somewhere along the way, the discussion morphed into when to begin treatment at relapse. I wanted to chime in to clarify the difference between relapse treatment and maintenance treatment.

The criteria for relapse has been updated by the IMWG. Imaging has been added as an earlier predictor that the multiple myeloma is on the move, and to get it addressed before bad effects kick in. Also, there is the issue of non-symptomatic (aka serologic) relapse, based only on the M-spike rising (without symptoms), and despite a reference on that from the IMWG, some centers, at least recently, I have observed, follow different criteria. I have seen an increase in the M-spike of 1, I have seen an increase of 0.5, and I have also seen 10% increase as a definition of relapse. Light chain only relapse is a bit more complicated. Although there are differences in when doctors consider exactly relapse has occurred, I think its obvious that treatment is required at that point.

Maintenance treatment, however, has nothing to do with relapse criteria. It is pre-planned treatment at a lower level than induction, given to a patient in a good first remission, who typically have achieved a VGPR or better. It is typically Revlimid at the maintenance level of 10 mg, but in theory could be a number of other drugs or combinations. The idea is to find a maintenance that works for each patient, but is well tolerated. As a practical matter, Revlimid has been tried and tested, as it's an oral drug. Last year a study published at the EMA showed in a small group that sub CT Velcade maintenance may have a similar activity. This has led to speculation that oral Ninlaro (ixazomib) may be a good maintenance agent, and its under study for approval for maintenance at this time.

When my wife turned symptomatic late in the summer of 2014, we spoke to the 4 most promi­nent centers in New York City. At that time, each of their philosophies included mainte­nance after induction. Interestingly, two centers said the autologous stem cell transplant would be optional if a complete response (CR) was achieved during induction, the other two would definitely recommend a stem cell transplant. With respect to maintenance, however, all four of them said it should be included. The difference in that regard was that one definitely wanted to maintain until progression, the other three said it was an open question or a judgement call, and would typically maintain for one to two years. I think you are generally aware of the benefits of maintenance, increased increase progression-free survival, and potentially im­proved overall survival, but there are other threads that go into that in depth.

On the downside of maintenance, if you are not inclined to do it, as you certainly have stated, then if you do maintenance, you will never actually know for sure how well it worked. We have data on populations in studies, but you have no idea if you are the average person or not. As an individual, it could potentially do nothing for you, except for the side effects. If you went a year on maintenance, and relapsed, you would have no way of knowing for sure if the main­tenance helped six months (for example), and the same would generally be true for any duration.

If however, you chose to go with maintenance, you should understand that you would be "playing the odds", and hoping for the best. Speaking with your doctor, the whole idea of maintenance is that it should be on the easy side. I am guessing that you had 25 mg of Revlimid at induction. Maintenance dosage is typically 10 mg. I have observed other posters report going down to 7.5 mg or 5 mg. You could look at it this way. Start off going two or three rounds (months) to see if you tolerated it. We do know that the side effects are less at the lower dosage, and there is no other drug to pile on the side effects. If you handled it well, you could hang in there for a year. At that point, you have reached the level of Revlimid maintenance where studies have reported a definitive progression-free survival advantage. Again, the key is that you tolerate it well, and it minimally impacts you. You could start out at 10 mg, and tweak down, if that helps, or you could to discontinue after a month or two if the side effects become onerous. Whatever you choose, good luck to you and I hope your remission is a very long one.

JPC
Name: JPC

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by MMFeb16,15 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:59 am

Dear JPC:

I read your suggestions several times in last six days. My current thinking is close to what you wrote in last paragraph.

I am getting my blood test on September 22nd and expect to see my hematologist by end of this month. Let us see how it goes.

This will be my five months without treatment (Revlimid plus dex). I feel very good. I work almost twelve to fifteen hours a day. I walk at least three miles a day. I am on controlled diet - no alcohol, no sugar, no salt, no white carbs, no red meat, lots of turmeric, baking soda. Lots of water with lime or lemon slices.

Thank you.

MMFeb16,15
Who do you know with myeloma?: Self
When were you/they diagnosed?: February 16, 2015
Age at diagnosis: 66

Re: M-spike creeping up, not on maintenance therapy

by coachhoke on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:08 am

MMF 16,15,

My journey has been somewhat similar to yours. Mine was Velcade and dex for 8 months (no transplant), followed by 2 years maintenance of Revlimid (15 mg, then 10 mg, then 5 mg, THEN 2.5 mg) followed by a one-year drug-free holiday. I have graphs of my lab results, and my lowest M-spike 0.12 g/dl occurred while I was on 2.5 mg of Revlimid. As my M-spike crept up to 0.9, I decided to start back on the 2.5 mg of Revlimid. After 3 months back on the Revlimid, my M-spike is 0.6, and I'm wrestling with taking another holiday. My side effects are annoying, but tolerable. II think it's helping keep the M-spike down, but is it necessary to prevent CRAB features?

Coach Hoke

coachhoke
Name: coachhoke
When were you/they diagnosed?: Apri 2012
Age at diagnosis: 71

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