Hi,
After having successful VRD (Velcade, Revlimid, and dexamethasone) treatment and considerably less successful stem cell transplant (SCT), I'm wondering if anyone has tried germanium sesquioxide (Ge2O7) as multiple myeloma treatment to combine with conventional approaches?
Some background to germanium sesquioxide (aka: Propagermanium, Serocion, bis (2- carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide and 2-carboxyethylgermasesquioxane)
Initial investigations were very promising into Ge2O7 for cancer in general and multiple myeloma in particular. Subsequent trials continued to yield good results but with many alarming undesirable effects including renal failure and death!
Further research seems to show that the problems were due to contamination with germanium dioxide, which is highly toxic. As a precaution there has, understandably, been considerable caution about the use of germanium sesquioxide.
Further research shows, or appears to show, that Ge2O7, in its pure form, is completely safe
Under supervision, I'm currently experimenting with low dosages (initially 50 mg/day, now 100 mg/day). So far so good. I seem to have significantly more energy.
I'll report back with empirical evidence and lab results when available.
Best,
Mijji
P.S. - My Approach to Multiple Myeloma:
I am committed to a combination of conventional pharmaceutical treatment together with whatever else is available that seems reasonable. Psychotherapy, homeopathy, mineral , plant and vitamin supplements as well as visualisation and meditation have worked wonders for me in terms of helping my mood, energy, mental clarity and emotions as well as appearing to actively diminish the rate of increase of multiple myeloma activity. I'm happy to give more details via private messages (but do not want to hear denigrating statements regarding the value of these treatments, nor am I prepared to enter into combative debates about their respective values).
My Diagnosis And Treatment:
I had a very high amount of paraprotein kappa (over 100 g/l - yes really!) when diagnosed and was initially put on Velcade, Revlimid, and prednisolone (the prednisolone was a mistake that somehow happened somewhere in the hospital administration), and when that proved ineffective, the prednisolone was replaced with dexamethasone, which was, fortunately, remarkably effective.
I was 55 when diagnosed and told that the standard treatment was VRD followed by SCT with melphalan. Fortunately, the VRD has been very effective, but the SCT, sadly, wasn't. I had a maintenance prescription of Revlimid on its own for a year after I finished the VRD. It was proposed that I take dexamethasone as well, but I refused, as I had found the mood and energy swings and insomnia unbearable to live with.
Forums
Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Last edited by Mijji on Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Mijji,
Could you please disclose where this experimentation is taking place – that is, at what research institution?
Could you please disclose where this experimentation is taking place – that is, at what research institution?
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
I was not able to find any journal articles reporting results of testing germanium sesquioxide as a potential anti-myeloma therapy. I did find two papers that seem to match with some of what Mijji has written, broadly but not specific to multiple myeloma. Both are from the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. Here are the citations and abstracts:
Bonnie J. Kaplan, W. Wesley Parish, G. Merrill Andrus, J. Steven A. Simpson, and Catherine J. Field. "Germane Facts About Germanium Sesquioxide: I. Chemistry and Anticancer Properties", The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. April 2004, 10(2): 337-344 (link to abstract)
Abstract:
This paper reviews the history, chemistry, safety, toxicity, and anticancer effects of the organogermanium compound bis (2-carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide (CEGS). A companion review follows, discussing the inaccuracies in the scientific record that have prematurely terminated research on clinical uses of CEGS. CEGS is a unique organogermanium compound first made by Mironov and coworkers in Russia and, shortly thereafter, popularized by Asai and his colleagues in Japan. Low concentrations of germanium occur in nearly all soils, plants and animal life; natural occurrence of the CEGS form is postulated but not yet demonstrated. The literature demonstrating its anticancer effect is particularly strong: CEGS induces interferon-γ (IFN-γ), enhances natural killer cell activity, and inhibits tumor and metastatic growth - effects often detectable after a single oral dose. In addition, oral consumption of CEGS is readily assimilated and rapidly cleared from the body without evidence of toxicity. Given these findings, the absence of human clinical trials of CEGS is unexpected. Possible explanations of why the convincing findings from animal research have not been used to support clinical trials are discussed. Clinical trials on CEGS are recommended.
Bonnie J. Kaplan, G. Merrill Andrus, and W. Wesley Parish. "Germane Facts About Germanium Sesquioxide: II. Scientific Error and Misrepresentation", The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. April 2004, 10(2): 345-348 (link to article)
Abstract:
The preceding paper reviewed the anticancer properties and safety of bis (2-carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide (CEGS). An examination of those data leads one to question why this information has not stimulated clinical trials in patients with cancer. The answer is discussed in this paper, which traces the history to an error published in the scientific literature in 1987. The reliance by subsequent authors on secondary sources, citing only the error and not the correction published in 1988, constitutes part of the explanation of why CEGS has been neglected. A second factor is also considered: careless reporting about any germanium-based compound as if the many thousands of germanium compounds were all the same. This combination of a publication error, careless writing, and the reliance on secondary sources appears to be responsible for the neglect of the potential clinical use of this unique germanium compound.
Bonnie J. Kaplan, W. Wesley Parish, G. Merrill Andrus, J. Steven A. Simpson, and Catherine J. Field. "Germane Facts About Germanium Sesquioxide: I. Chemistry and Anticancer Properties", The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. April 2004, 10(2): 337-344 (link to abstract)
Abstract:
This paper reviews the history, chemistry, safety, toxicity, and anticancer effects of the organogermanium compound bis (2-carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide (CEGS). A companion review follows, discussing the inaccuracies in the scientific record that have prematurely terminated research on clinical uses of CEGS. CEGS is a unique organogermanium compound first made by Mironov and coworkers in Russia and, shortly thereafter, popularized by Asai and his colleagues in Japan. Low concentrations of germanium occur in nearly all soils, plants and animal life; natural occurrence of the CEGS form is postulated but not yet demonstrated. The literature demonstrating its anticancer effect is particularly strong: CEGS induces interferon-γ (IFN-γ), enhances natural killer cell activity, and inhibits tumor and metastatic growth - effects often detectable after a single oral dose. In addition, oral consumption of CEGS is readily assimilated and rapidly cleared from the body without evidence of toxicity. Given these findings, the absence of human clinical trials of CEGS is unexpected. Possible explanations of why the convincing findings from animal research have not been used to support clinical trials are discussed. Clinical trials on CEGS are recommended.
Bonnie J. Kaplan, G. Merrill Andrus, and W. Wesley Parish. "Germane Facts About Germanium Sesquioxide: II. Scientific Error and Misrepresentation", The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. April 2004, 10(2): 345-348 (link to article)
Abstract:
The preceding paper reviewed the anticancer properties and safety of bis (2-carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide (CEGS). An examination of those data leads one to question why this information has not stimulated clinical trials in patients with cancer. The answer is discussed in this paper, which traces the history to an error published in the scientific literature in 1987. The reliance by subsequent authors on secondary sources, citing only the error and not the correction published in 1988, constitutes part of the explanation of why CEGS has been neglected. A second factor is also considered: careless reporting about any germanium-based compound as if the many thousands of germanium compounds were all the same. This combination of a publication error, careless writing, and the reliance on secondary sources appears to be responsible for the neglect of the potential clinical use of this unique germanium compound.
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Hi Mrozdav,
I did extensive reading via Google: Articles in English (and French and German, which I speak) were sufficient to convince of its established efficacy and potential benefit enough to experiment with it myself (under supervision). I'm afraid I didn't keep records of the particular sites, but they are all in the public domain.
There were also several articles in Japanese (which I don't speak) which could be interesting, as Ge207 is marketed in Japan as a medication under the tradename Serocion. If there are any forum contributors who speak Japanese and are willing and able to give a brief summary of any of those articles, it would really be appreciated.
Hope this helps,
M
I did extensive reading via Google: Articles in English (and French and German, which I speak) were sufficient to convince of its established efficacy and potential benefit enough to experiment with it myself (under supervision). I'm afraid I didn't keep records of the particular sites, but they are all in the public domain.
There were also several articles in Japanese (which I don't speak) which could be interesting, as Ge207 is marketed in Japan as a medication under the tradename Serocion. If there are any forum contributors who speak Japanese and are willing and able to give a brief summary of any of those articles, it would really be appreciated.
Hope this helps,
M
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Hi Mijji,
I'm solidly in the camp regarding the use of proven alternative therapy that complements and increases the efficacy of traditional myeloma treatment. However, I need to see more than one case study and would like a published human clinical trial with a myeloma focus.
One of the most discussed alternative substances on this forum is curcumin. You can easily find information and study results, so I won't post links here.
I have set the bar fairly high, which I feel is important since there are no real meaningful government regulations of supplements, and another downside for me is that all of these supplements are purchased by me and not covered by any insurance. This means that I need to get as much bang for my buck as possible.
Best of luck to you in your experimentation and I will be following, but right now this does not qualify for my own use.
Best! BN
I'm solidly in the camp regarding the use of proven alternative therapy that complements and increases the efficacy of traditional myeloma treatment. However, I need to see more than one case study and would like a published human clinical trial with a myeloma focus.
One of the most discussed alternative substances on this forum is curcumin. You can easily find information and study results, so I won't post links here.
I have set the bar fairly high, which I feel is important since there are no real meaningful government regulations of supplements, and another downside for me is that all of these supplements are purchased by me and not covered by any insurance. This means that I need to get as much bang for my buck as possible.
Best of luck to you in your experimentation and I will be following, but right now this does not qualify for my own use.
Best! BN
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Bar-none - Who do you know with myeloma?: Me
- When were you/they diagnosed?: 3/14
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Thanks for clarifying some things, Mijji.
I've checked into germanium sesquioxide a bit more based on the additional information that Mijji found, and I've summarized below what I found. For now, I've left out any conclusions. I figure it's probably best to share the information first, hear what people think -- including questions people may have -- and then start drawing some conclusions ... if, in fact, any conclusions can be drawn.
So, a technical detail first. Propagermanium does not actually have the chemical formula Ge2O7. It seems that formula and its associated name, "germanium sesquioxide" -- which literally means germanium combined with seven oxygen atoms -- is a kind of shorthand. You can find various formulas out there for propagermanium, but the two that I saw the most often are: C6H10O7Ge2 and ((HOOCCH2CH2Ge)2O3)n.
That said, drugs and supplements that say they have germanium sesquioxide seem to actually have propagermanium, which, as a supplement in the U.S., appears also to be marketed as "GE-132" or "Ge-132".
There was, in fact, a clinical trial done investigating propagermanium as a potential anti-myeloma therapy. Here's the citation and abstract:
Y Tsutsumi et al., "Effectiveness of propagermanium treatment in multiple myeloma patients," European Journal of Haematology, 73: 397–40 (link to abstract)
Abstract:
Interferon (IFN) is one of several drugs effective in treating multiple myeloma, and propagermanium is an IFN inducer. We report on 10 multiple myeloma patients who were treated with propagermanium at doses from 10 to 40 mg. Two patients achieved complete remission (CR), two patients achieved partial remission (PR), and the condition of four patients was stable (stable disease, SD). After discontinuation of propagermanium, the status of multiple myeloma progressed in two patients who were in SD and in two patients who had achieved PR. The administration of propagermanium was restarted in one patient resulting in a decrease in her paraprotein.
As you can see in the abstract, the primary way that propagermanium is believed to exert an anti-myeloma effect is by its ability to stimulate the body to produce extra interferon.
That should ring a bell with some people here. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, interferon was tested as a myeloma treatment and was often given as maintenance therapy after induction chemotherapy. My recollection is that it was deemed to have some – but not necessarily a lot anti-myeloma activity. However, it also had a lot of side effects. So, eventually, the drug fell out of favor as a myeloma therapy.
Propagermanium is approved as a prescription drug in Japan, as Mijji stated, under the brand name Serocion. It's approval, however, is as a treatment for hepatitis.
Again, this shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Until the recent introduction of some new, very effective hepatitis drugs, one of the primary things interferon has been prescribed for in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere is hepatitis.
Here is a link to the patient information (in English) for Serocion in Japan. (Remember, Serocion is the brand name for propagermanium in Japan.)
Also, here is what I think is the prescribing information for Serocion, translated (courtesy of Google) from Japanese into English.
The "Pharmacology" section, which includes information on the drug's mechanism of action, is interesting. A lot of the effects the drug may have on the body are the sort of things you see in discussions of how myeloma drugs may have their anti-myeloma effect. What I don't know, however, is whether these effects are basically what you would expect to see for interferon, or if you get something "extra" with propagermanium beyond what you would see with just interferon.
You can find propagermanium supplements sold in the U.S. Just Google "Ge-132 supplement". Interestingly, the daily dose that the supplement manufacturers recommend is 100 mg per day. That is more than 3 times the dose of Serocion that is recommended in Japan for the treatment of hepatitis. And, as far as I can tell, 1 mg of propagermanium supplement in the U.S. is equal to 1 mg of Serocion.
That's what I have for now. Have fun with it!
I've checked into germanium sesquioxide a bit more based on the additional information that Mijji found, and I've summarized below what I found. For now, I've left out any conclusions. I figure it's probably best to share the information first, hear what people think -- including questions people may have -- and then start drawing some conclusions ... if, in fact, any conclusions can be drawn.
So, a technical detail first. Propagermanium does not actually have the chemical formula Ge2O7. It seems that formula and its associated name, "germanium sesquioxide" -- which literally means germanium combined with seven oxygen atoms -- is a kind of shorthand. You can find various formulas out there for propagermanium, but the two that I saw the most often are: C6H10O7Ge2 and ((HOOCCH2CH2Ge)2O3)n.
That said, drugs and supplements that say they have germanium sesquioxide seem to actually have propagermanium, which, as a supplement in the U.S., appears also to be marketed as "GE-132" or "Ge-132".
There was, in fact, a clinical trial done investigating propagermanium as a potential anti-myeloma therapy. Here's the citation and abstract:
Y Tsutsumi et al., "Effectiveness of propagermanium treatment in multiple myeloma patients," European Journal of Haematology, 73: 397–40 (link to abstract)
Abstract:
Interferon (IFN) is one of several drugs effective in treating multiple myeloma, and propagermanium is an IFN inducer. We report on 10 multiple myeloma patients who were treated with propagermanium at doses from 10 to 40 mg. Two patients achieved complete remission (CR), two patients achieved partial remission (PR), and the condition of four patients was stable (stable disease, SD). After discontinuation of propagermanium, the status of multiple myeloma progressed in two patients who were in SD and in two patients who had achieved PR. The administration of propagermanium was restarted in one patient resulting in a decrease in her paraprotein.
As you can see in the abstract, the primary way that propagermanium is believed to exert an anti-myeloma effect is by its ability to stimulate the body to produce extra interferon.
That should ring a bell with some people here. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, interferon was tested as a myeloma treatment and was often given as maintenance therapy after induction chemotherapy. My recollection is that it was deemed to have some – but not necessarily a lot anti-myeloma activity. However, it also had a lot of side effects. So, eventually, the drug fell out of favor as a myeloma therapy.
Propagermanium is approved as a prescription drug in Japan, as Mijji stated, under the brand name Serocion. It's approval, however, is as a treatment for hepatitis.
Again, this shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Until the recent introduction of some new, very effective hepatitis drugs, one of the primary things interferon has been prescribed for in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere is hepatitis.
Here is a link to the patient information (in English) for Serocion in Japan. (Remember, Serocion is the brand name for propagermanium in Japan.)
Also, here is what I think is the prescribing information for Serocion, translated (courtesy of Google) from Japanese into English.
The "Pharmacology" section, which includes information on the drug's mechanism of action, is interesting. A lot of the effects the drug may have on the body are the sort of things you see in discussions of how myeloma drugs may have their anti-myeloma effect. What I don't know, however, is whether these effects are basically what you would expect to see for interferon, or if you get something "extra" with propagermanium beyond what you would see with just interferon.
You can find propagermanium supplements sold in the U.S. Just Google "Ge-132 supplement". Interestingly, the daily dose that the supplement manufacturers recommend is 100 mg per day. That is more than 3 times the dose of Serocion that is recommended in Japan for the treatment of hepatitis. And, as far as I can tell, 1 mg of propagermanium supplement in the U.S. is equal to 1 mg of Serocion.
That's what I have for now. Have fun with it!
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Thanks Terry for clarifying and explaining all that so thoroughly. I realise belatedly that there is more information and background that I should have included.
Everything that Terry said is correct, or at least concurs with my findings. I apologize for referring to germanium sesquioxide as Ge2O7 and hope that it was not too misleading (although in my defense I did give the full formula in the footnotes) Ge2O7, without the carboxyethyl groups, was intended as a shorthand to save me typing germanium sesquioxide – itself an abbreviation... from now on I'll use GS.
In order to explain how my interest developed in GS, I 'm going to out myself as a complementary therapy practitioner. I have over thirty years experience as a practitioner, teacher, writer and editor. I had significant success with people with chronic conditions that don't always respond well to modern medicine such as hepatitis C, cancer, and chronic fatigue syndrome. And have always been particularly interested in serious immune system issues, discussing them with colleagues and reviewing and collating other people's findings.
I now find myself on the other side of the looking glass … scary as hell, but fascinating too.
Complementary medicine usually approaches healthcare from the other end of the microscope: because there are so many contributory factors to any illness, practitioners try to address and help improve any part of the person's life that seems like it could benefit, instead of solely targeting the disease. Everything is included ... life history, environmental factors and apparently unrelated symptoms as well as psychological and personal issues. It is often of primary importance to build up the general functioning of the immune system. It was hearing about this latter property of GS that prompted my interest.
I'm very skeptical of miracle cures, even more so now, since my diagnosis. I've lost count of the number of vague, dopey suggestions of wacky 'cancer cures' that people somehow think it appropriate to foist on me once they know I have multiple myeloma... but the sources of the potential benefits of germanium were people I know that I can depend on, with reliable backgrounds and experience.
After hearing of positive results via colleagues across Europe using GS for cancer in general and multiple myeloma in particular I started my own investigation. Because I was researching for myself, without any intention of sharing my results, I didn't keep a record of my findings – I just read papers and opinion on websites as well as discussing with peers and asking them in turn to find out anything pertinent from their colleagues. After two years of this research, I am now convinced that GS is potentially helpful against myeloma activity, as a general immune booster and in improving well-being.
My initial enquiries revealed that although anecdotal reports were startlingly positive, web-based research was scary, detailing serious complications and even deaths from renal failure (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1726409). I couldn't find a way of reconciling these apparent contradictions. Further digging pointed to flaws in the negative research, which supposedly demonstrated GS dangers, and revealed that the GS tested was contaminated with highly-toxic germanium dioxide (GeO2 – not an abbreviation!)
Bad news, like thrown mud, tends to stick and although in the original research paper Okuda et al theorised that the negative results could have come from contamination by GeO2, it nevertheless concluded that the problems resulted from GS. Further research by Matsusaka et al demonstrated that the negative effects were, in fact, a result of GeO2 contamination and Okuda himself recanted in a later paper that both indicated GeO2 toxicity and demonstrated the safety of GS even in doses as high as 150mg/kg/day (over 10,000 mg - ten grammes per day - for someone weighing 150 pounds!).
Sandra Goodman PhD, a militant advocate of complementary approaches, goes into greater depth in 'Germanium: The health and life enhancer,' the complete text of which is available online. Goodman has researched germanium for years, her initial findings led to an abortive attempt to seek funding for a research project using a germanium salt to treat AIDS and HIV back in the early days of AZT therapy.
I contacted Dr Goodman and she vocally confirmed widespread benefits of certain germanium compounds. She pointed out that the germanium salts that are dangerous are inorganic and the beneficial ones that are used clinically are organic and not harmful. (This is a different definition of organic than in your health food store: In chemistry organic means compounds with carbon bonds and inorganic are non-carbon substances). Although some of Goodman's theories about the mechanism of germanium are fairly 'out there', she cites a comprehensive range of solid research.
So it was not just a whim that led me to experimenting on myself … I wonder, what is the opposite of a randomised-double-blind-control trial? I guess I'm doing a selective-informed-knowledgeable test. So far, I definitely feel better in myself with more energy and clearer and more incisive thinking. People keep saying how well I look and how I 'have more colour' etc. I'll post updates as things unfold …
Please note that this discussion is intended for people who have already experienced the benefits of complementary medicine, or who are open-minded about it and want to find out more – if you want to disparage holistic approaches, please start a new thread.
P.S. - One small point to add to Terry's thorough synopsis: In the Japanese medical data relating to Serocion, it's true that the patient information states the daily dose is 30 mg, but the prescribing information in the successful hepatitis B trial was 3 x 30 mg per day, i.e. 90 mg – similar to the 100 mg dosage available from suppliers in the US (50 mg is also available in the States).
Everything that Terry said is correct, or at least concurs with my findings. I apologize for referring to germanium sesquioxide as Ge2O7 and hope that it was not too misleading (although in my defense I did give the full formula in the footnotes) Ge2O7, without the carboxyethyl groups, was intended as a shorthand to save me typing germanium sesquioxide – itself an abbreviation... from now on I'll use GS.
In order to explain how my interest developed in GS, I 'm going to out myself as a complementary therapy practitioner. I have over thirty years experience as a practitioner, teacher, writer and editor. I had significant success with people with chronic conditions that don't always respond well to modern medicine such as hepatitis C, cancer, and chronic fatigue syndrome. And have always been particularly interested in serious immune system issues, discussing them with colleagues and reviewing and collating other people's findings.
I now find myself on the other side of the looking glass … scary as hell, but fascinating too.
Complementary medicine usually approaches healthcare from the other end of the microscope: because there are so many contributory factors to any illness, practitioners try to address and help improve any part of the person's life that seems like it could benefit, instead of solely targeting the disease. Everything is included ... life history, environmental factors and apparently unrelated symptoms as well as psychological and personal issues. It is often of primary importance to build up the general functioning of the immune system. It was hearing about this latter property of GS that prompted my interest.
I'm very skeptical of miracle cures, even more so now, since my diagnosis. I've lost count of the number of vague, dopey suggestions of wacky 'cancer cures' that people somehow think it appropriate to foist on me once they know I have multiple myeloma... but the sources of the potential benefits of germanium were people I know that I can depend on, with reliable backgrounds and experience.
After hearing of positive results via colleagues across Europe using GS for cancer in general and multiple myeloma in particular I started my own investigation. Because I was researching for myself, without any intention of sharing my results, I didn't keep a record of my findings – I just read papers and opinion on websites as well as discussing with peers and asking them in turn to find out anything pertinent from their colleagues. After two years of this research, I am now convinced that GS is potentially helpful against myeloma activity, as a general immune booster and in improving well-being.
My initial enquiries revealed that although anecdotal reports were startlingly positive, web-based research was scary, detailing serious complications and even deaths from renal failure (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1726409). I couldn't find a way of reconciling these apparent contradictions. Further digging pointed to flaws in the negative research, which supposedly demonstrated GS dangers, and revealed that the GS tested was contaminated with highly-toxic germanium dioxide (GeO2 – not an abbreviation!)
Bad news, like thrown mud, tends to stick and although in the original research paper Okuda et al theorised that the negative results could have come from contamination by GeO2, it nevertheless concluded that the problems resulted from GS. Further research by Matsusaka et al demonstrated that the negative effects were, in fact, a result of GeO2 contamination and Okuda himself recanted in a later paper that both indicated GeO2 toxicity and demonstrated the safety of GS even in doses as high as 150mg/kg/day (over 10,000 mg - ten grammes per day - for someone weighing 150 pounds!).
Sandra Goodman PhD, a militant advocate of complementary approaches, goes into greater depth in 'Germanium: The health and life enhancer,' the complete text of which is available online. Goodman has researched germanium for years, her initial findings led to an abortive attempt to seek funding for a research project using a germanium salt to treat AIDS and HIV back in the early days of AZT therapy.
I contacted Dr Goodman and she vocally confirmed widespread benefits of certain germanium compounds. She pointed out that the germanium salts that are dangerous are inorganic and the beneficial ones that are used clinically are organic and not harmful. (This is a different definition of organic than in your health food store: In chemistry organic means compounds with carbon bonds and inorganic are non-carbon substances). Although some of Goodman's theories about the mechanism of germanium are fairly 'out there', she cites a comprehensive range of solid research.
So it was not just a whim that led me to experimenting on myself … I wonder, what is the opposite of a randomised-double-blind-control trial? I guess I'm doing a selective-informed-knowledgeable test. So far, I definitely feel better in myself with more energy and clearer and more incisive thinking. People keep saying how well I look and how I 'have more colour' etc. I'll post updates as things unfold …
Please note that this discussion is intended for people who have already experienced the benefits of complementary medicine, or who are open-minded about it and want to find out more – if you want to disparage holistic approaches, please start a new thread.
P.S. - One small point to add to Terry's thorough synopsis: In the Japanese medical data relating to Serocion, it's true that the patient information states the daily dose is 30 mg, but the prescribing information in the successful hepatitis B trial was 3 x 30 mg per day, i.e. 90 mg – similar to the 100 mg dosage available from suppliers in the US (50 mg is also available in the States).
Last edited by Mijji on Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Hi Bar-none,
I have tried to answer your query, in my own way, in the above post.
GS is relatively cheap – it's around $30 for 60 100 mg caps which, is two months' supply (i.e., about $15 a month).
Since being diagnosed, I have had to re-set my own bar in terms of what value I put on my health and what I'm prepared to spend on medicines. I've worked up to about $200 a month, which feels OK financially. In terms of what is available I could easily spend ten times that much, if I had that sort of money.
I'm convinced of the benefits of curcumin, and know several people with diverse chronic conditions that it has helped, but nothing works for everyone and it hasn't done anything perceptible for me. I continue taking it as I'm sure, at the very least, it boosts health at a background level.
Best, Mijji
I have tried to answer your query, in my own way, in the above post.
GS is relatively cheap – it's around $30 for 60 100 mg caps which, is two months' supply (i.e., about $15 a month).
Since being diagnosed, I have had to re-set my own bar in terms of what value I put on my health and what I'm prepared to spend on medicines. I've worked up to about $200 a month, which feels OK financially. In terms of what is available I could easily spend ten times that much, if I had that sort of money.
I'm convinced of the benefits of curcumin, and know several people with diverse chronic conditions that it has helped, but nothing works for everyone and it hasn't done anything perceptible for me. I continue taking it as I'm sure, at the very least, it boosts health at a background level.
Best, Mijji
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
Toxic or Safe?
From Early Research Errors Indicating GS/Ge-132 'Toxicity' to Later Info Showing GS/Ge132 'Safer than Table Salt'
The story of how GS/Ge-132 came to be mislabelled as dangerous is so bizarre that it's worth unpicking the info in the above posts further. Schauss AG in 'Nephrotoxicity and neurotoxicity in humans from organogermanium compounds and germanium dioxide' (1991) states in the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1726409 'Since 1982, there have been 18 reported cases of acute renal dysfunction or failure, including two deaths, linked to oral intake of Ge elixirs containing germanium dioxide (GeO2) or Ge-132.' Thereby equating the properties of germanium dioxide and germanium sesquioxide. This isn't just bad science, it's not science at all! Germanium dioxide GeO2 is a toxic inorganic germanium salt. Germanium sesquioxide (Ge-132, GS, serocion, propagermanium etc) is an organic germanium compound with a radically different structure C6H10O7Ge2. To equate the two compounds and state that their effects are equivalent is like lumping together table salt /NaCl and sodium cyanide/NaCN.
But the research paper that originally wrongly fingered GS/Ge-132 as toxic, was almost as lax. In the discussion section (Okuda et al 1987) theorized that the harmful results of the trial could have been caused by contamination of GS/Ge-132 with GeO2 (because GS/Ge-132 is synthesized from GeO2) ie they thought there may have been GeO2 present causing the negative symptoms - but they didn't actually analyze the samples! Despite this rather serious oversight, the researchers concluded that the resultant health problems were properties of GS/Ge-132 (1). Further research by Matsusaka et al demonstrated that the negative effects were, in fact, a result of GeO2 contamination (2) and, to his credit, Okuda recanted in a later paper that delineated between the two compounds. Identifying GeO2 toxicity and demonstrating the safety of GS rin doses as high as 150mg/kg/day (3) . Miyao et al produced similar results, demonstrating the safety of GS in doses of 25, 50 and 75 mg/kg/day (4).
References:
1) Okuda S, Kiyama S, Oh Y, et al. Persistent renal dysfunction induced by chronic intake of germanium-containing compounds. Current Therapeutic Research 1987: 41,265-275.
2) Matsusaka T, Fujii M, Nakano T, et al. Germanium-induced nephropathy: report of two cases and review of the literature. Clinical Nephrology 1988: 30(6 – 1988),341-345.
3) Sanai T, Okuda S, Onoyama K, et al. Germanium dioxide-induced nephropathy: A new type of renal disease. Nephron 1990: 54,53-60.
4) Miyao K, Onishi T, Asai K, Tomizawa S, Suzuki F. Toxicology and Phase I studies on a novel organogermanium compound, Ge-132. In: Nelson JD, Grassi C, eds. Current Chemotherapy and Infectious Diseases. Washington, D.C.: American Society of Microbiology, 1980: 1527-1529.
From Early Research Errors Indicating GS/Ge-132 'Toxicity' to Later Info Showing GS/Ge132 'Safer than Table Salt'
The story of how GS/Ge-132 came to be mislabelled as dangerous is so bizarre that it's worth unpicking the info in the above posts further. Schauss AG in 'Nephrotoxicity and neurotoxicity in humans from organogermanium compounds and germanium dioxide' (1991) states in the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1726409 'Since 1982, there have been 18 reported cases of acute renal dysfunction or failure, including two deaths, linked to oral intake of Ge elixirs containing germanium dioxide (GeO2) or Ge-132.' Thereby equating the properties of germanium dioxide and germanium sesquioxide. This isn't just bad science, it's not science at all! Germanium dioxide GeO2 is a toxic inorganic germanium salt. Germanium sesquioxide (Ge-132, GS, serocion, propagermanium etc) is an organic germanium compound with a radically different structure C6H10O7Ge2. To equate the two compounds and state that their effects are equivalent is like lumping together table salt /NaCl and sodium cyanide/NaCN.
But the research paper that originally wrongly fingered GS/Ge-132 as toxic, was almost as lax. In the discussion section (Okuda et al 1987) theorized that the harmful results of the trial could have been caused by contamination of GS/Ge-132 with GeO2 (because GS/Ge-132 is synthesized from GeO2) ie they thought there may have been GeO2 present causing the negative symptoms - but they didn't actually analyze the samples! Despite this rather serious oversight, the researchers concluded that the resultant health problems were properties of GS/Ge-132 (1). Further research by Matsusaka et al demonstrated that the negative effects were, in fact, a result of GeO2 contamination (2) and, to his credit, Okuda recanted in a later paper that delineated between the two compounds. Identifying GeO2 toxicity and demonstrating the safety of GS rin doses as high as 150mg/kg/day (3) . Miyao et al produced similar results, demonstrating the safety of GS in doses of 25, 50 and 75 mg/kg/day (4).
References:
1) Okuda S, Kiyama S, Oh Y, et al. Persistent renal dysfunction induced by chronic intake of germanium-containing compounds. Current Therapeutic Research 1987: 41,265-275.
2) Matsusaka T, Fujii M, Nakano T, et al. Germanium-induced nephropathy: report of two cases and review of the literature. Clinical Nephrology 1988: 30(6 – 1988),341-345.
3) Sanai T, Okuda S, Onoyama K, et al. Germanium dioxide-induced nephropathy: A new type of renal disease. Nephron 1990: 54,53-60.
4) Miyao K, Onishi T, Asai K, Tomizawa S, Suzuki F. Toxicology and Phase I studies on a novel organogermanium compound, Ge-132. In: Nelson JD, Grassi C, eds. Current Chemotherapy and Infectious Diseases. Washington, D.C.: American Society of Microbiology, 1980: 1527-1529.
Last edited by Mijji on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
Re: Germanium sesquioxide for multiple myeloma
The Good Stuff: Positive resuts of GS/Ge-132 with myeloma
One paper perhaps slightly buried in Terry's comprehensive post above could benefit from more prominence: Tsutsumi et al (1994) demonstrated the clinical effectiveness of GS/Ge-132 with people with multiple myeloma using remarkably small doses of between 10mg and 40mg (1). The findings came from tests on small number of people but the results were very promising.
The abstract is worth repeating:
Interferon (IFN) is one of several drugs effective in treating multiple myeloma (multiple myeloma), and propagermanium is an IFN inducer. We report on 10 multiple myeloma patients who were treated with propagermanium at doses from 10 to 40 mg. Two patients achieved complete remission (CR), two patients achieved partial remission (PR), and the condition of four patients was stable (stable disease, SD). After discontinuation of propagermanium, the status of multiple myeloma progressed in two patients who were in SD and in two patients who had achieved PR. The administration of propagermanium was restarted in one patient resulting in a decrease in her paraprotein.
1) Tsutsumi, Y. et al. Effectiveness of propagermanium treatment in multiple myeloma patients. Eur J Haematol 2004: 73, 397-401.
One paper perhaps slightly buried in Terry's comprehensive post above could benefit from more prominence: Tsutsumi et al (1994) demonstrated the clinical effectiveness of GS/Ge-132 with people with multiple myeloma using remarkably small doses of between 10mg and 40mg (1). The findings came from tests on small number of people but the results were very promising.
The abstract is worth repeating:
Interferon (IFN) is one of several drugs effective in treating multiple myeloma (multiple myeloma), and propagermanium is an IFN inducer. We report on 10 multiple myeloma patients who were treated with propagermanium at doses from 10 to 40 mg. Two patients achieved complete remission (CR), two patients achieved partial remission (PR), and the condition of four patients was stable (stable disease, SD). After discontinuation of propagermanium, the status of multiple myeloma progressed in two patients who were in SD and in two patients who had achieved PR. The administration of propagermanium was restarted in one patient resulting in a decrease in her paraprotein.
1) Tsutsumi, Y. et al. Effectiveness of propagermanium treatment in multiple myeloma patients. Eur J Haematol 2004: 73, 397-401.
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Mijji - When were you/they diagnosed?: 2011
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